Continuing from Part 2…
This exposition contines the dissection of the flame-war from this Asimov’s Forum thread. [Forum shut down means whole thread now only available in Postscript Part A to this series] Particularly Tangent editor Dave Truesdale outing himself as a Holocaust Revisionist.
Now somebody want to ask Asimov’s Forum admin (question still applies even after Forum shut-down) if Truesdale was threatened with a banning (the way I was! See Part 5 for the ugly details here. None of this knowable from the forum thread) for his disgusting mealy-mouthed apologetics and lame whitewashing of Hogan’s Holocaust Denial and Truesdale’s associated clear sympathy for Holocaust Revisionism? I’m willing to bet no. Asimov’s admin doesn’t appear to think that what Truesdale (and later Marian) wrote, JUSTIFYING HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM is a bannable offense (we are not talking freedom of speech issues here).
Admin also deleted my post in which I called Truesdale an ass and show up Hogan completely for the Holocaust DENIALIST that he was. Double standards anybody? Worse it’s a moral inversion. And Asimov’s forumites in the main proceeded to engage – whether they realised it or not – in the most pathetic glossing over and sugarcoating of Truesdale (and Marian) who were let us not forget, denying that Hogan the hardcore Holocaust DENIER was a Holocaust DENIER AFTER I had put up the evidence that he was one (and Asimov’s Forum admin remember deleted my first most important post on the subject – see Part 2).
Now note that the response of Truesdale’s (quoted further down) is to the three posts of mine I have referenced in part 2 of this exposé (including the first post of mine deleted by Asimov’s Forum admin – all of this can be viewed in its entirety in the forthcoming Postscript Part A), AFTER I had evidenced Hogan’s praise and admiration of David Irving and Arthur Butz, among the most notorious hardcore Holocaust DENIERS in the English-language world. So now Truesdale can’t claim he doesn’t know that Hogan was a hardcore Holocaust DENIER.
Of course let me point out that there never was any excuse not to know that Hogan was a Holocaust Denier in the first place (years before he died in fact). The reason I have already laid out in parts 1 and 2. The references to Hogans Holocaust Denial/Revisionism at Hogan’s wiki page take one straight to his two relevant Holocaust Denial blog/bulletin board commentaries.
All from the horse’s mouth so to speak.
So really Truesdale (and Marian Powell) snidely dismissing my outrage at all the equivocation and justification for Hogan’s stance here, has no excuse for claiming ‘uncertainty’ of Hogan’s Holocaust Denial. There is the rub…
Yet let us give Truesdale (and Marian) the benefit of the doubt, and say Truesdale just isn’t the brightest and he didn’t think of actually checking up what Hogan himself had to say on the subject of the Holocaust. Even though the average twelve year old would have, if remotely curious on the subject, just gone to wiki as is the wont of callow youth and seen (to wiki’s credit here) that they actually give online references to the claims of Hogan’s Holocaust Denial. Hey presto they take you straight to Hogan’s own blog in which he unashamedly makes it clear that he admires the opinions and views on the Holocaust of among the most notorious hardcore Holocaust DENIERS in the West – Irving, Butz, Weber and Zundel. Even if our hypothetical twelve year old did not know who these characters are, and we wouldn’t expect him to, once again he could just do some cursory research online that would take no more time than the average seventh grade homework assignment and he would verify for himself that these characters are hardcore Holocaust DENIERS and fascists. Even if our hypothetical twelve year old only bothered researching David Irving, he would uncover all he needs to know about Irving’s Holocaust Denial in less than an hour.
So this begs a question, is Truesdale not the sharpest tool in the shed or is it something more sinister? Is Truesdale incapable of doing the most basic homework, all accessible on the web and not taking much time at all, or is Truesdale simply stubborn, proud and incredibly egotistical? So much so that he can’t admit having screwed up in his opinion on Hogan’s Holocaust views or… is it something much much worse than that?
Truesdale’s response to me – quoted above – is not very comforting. Some of the bright red flag comments:
So I scratched around a little bit and found what seemed to be solid evidence that he did indeed say such things. And I also found solid evidence that he did not believe the holocaust never took place, but that he believed that some of the way the history was written about the holocaust was wrong. It was this he “denied.” He denied the public histories as they were written. A crucial difference.
..I don’t want to get into a political discussion about this, especially not here. I only mention the above as a cautionary exercise, one which is intended to make clear that you can’t always take for literal truth everything you read, or hear second hand. Keep an open mind.
Now this straight away is a big tell. It is standard modus operandi for all Holocaust Revisionist ‘rhetoric’ of the radical Leftist and paleocon variety (that is outside of Muslim extremist circles and self-admitted neo-Nazis who are at least honest about what they believe) to blabber along the lines of ‘Holocaust Denial is nuts, of course Jews died, BUUUUUUUT there is a legitimate “debate” about the “details” blabla and there is nothing wrong with asking questions about the official history’. I have already mentioned this in Part 1. I don’t want to repeat myself unnecessarily. Also if the reader (like the many Asimov’s forumites commenting on that thread) is either too cretinous or too much of a Jew-hater or both to get it on Holocaust Revisionist-speak-that-pretends-it’s-not, that is not my problem. Either you get it or you don’t. This post of mine is long enough as it is, and it is beyond the pale to explain why this kind of “thinking” on the Holocaust itself does not merely reek of Holocaust Revisionism, it is Holocaust Revisionism in principle.
If you don’t know that, once again not my problem. It would be like debating whether slavery or pedophilia is always morally and ethically reprehensible. It is beyond the pale to debate the latter, you either get it or you don’t. I wouldn’t write a whole blog essay explaining why sexual relations between adults and pre-pubescent boys and girls is always wrong and reprehensible, ditto slavery. Either you have a moral compass on this front or you don’t. Pedophilia and slavery are wrong and iniquitous and that is that. Likewise with Holocaust Revisionism, including the wormy ‘just asking questions of the official history’. It is beyond the pale to debate this. To do so is to give Holocaust Denial/Revisionism legitimacy.
Also when one looks beneath the surface of Holocaust Revisionism that pretends it’s reasonable, supposedly palatable and distinguishable from Holocaust Denial, one descends into full-blown Holocaust Denial anyhow. It’s at bottom the same thing. Holocaust Revisionism is denying the extent and exact nature of the Holocaust. It is the same thing. This is clarified at the Nizkor Project, a web-based resource that combats Holocaust Denial/Revisionism www.nizkor.org
Hence James Hogan himself expressed unreserved admiration, support and praise for hardcore Holocaust DENIERS – Irving, Butz, Weber and Zundel and he did so without circumspection, caution, even mild disagreement or any caveat lector at all. Hardly. That’s because Hogan was a Holocaust DENIER. So it follows – ipso facto – that those endorsing Hogan’s views on the Holocaust as legitimate and reasonable are endorsing Holocaust DENIAL as reasonable and legitimate, whether they are cognisant of this or not. Naturally Holocaust Revisionists, by nature, are not merely extremely bigoted but incredibly duplictous and stupid too. In other words the only explanations for defending the late James Hogan’s views on the Holocaust are cretinism or sympathy for Holocaust DENIAL (never mind this Revisionism bugaboo) or thin-skinned anti-Semitism that grates at any mention of the horrific consequences of anti-Semitism. There is no fourth alternative.
The freedom of speech issue is not being debated here. That is a red herring.
In fact this kind of wishy-washy disingenuous Holocaust blabla apologetics was employed by Hogan himself on the very Asimov’s Forum thread in which he personally defended his views on the Holocaust (thread likewise also no longer accessible since it was years ago on the previous – second to last – Asimov’s Forum on another server).
In other words Truesdale proceeds to dig his own grave, oblivious to it all the while. Now my response to Truesdale (and Marian – her two posts from this thread are in the forthcoming Postscript Part A) follows, in which it starts to dawn on me (and reluctantly since I like to give people the benefit of the doubt) that Truesdale and Marian are not necessarily just too stupid and lazy to do basic research on Hogan to verify his position on the Holocaust or too stubborn and proud to admit that they screwed up big time here, but that it’s much much worse than that…
Marian would also start a thread entitled ‘Holocaust Deniers’ that self-same day at the Asimov’s Forum, hours later! appearing to condemn Holocaust Denial. No kidding. This whole thread is made available, including her two bizarre double-think comments (double-think since in apparent contradiction to what she writes in her two posts legitimizing Holocaust Revisionism in the ‘James Hogan has passed away’ thread the self-same day) in Postscript Part B. I give a commentary in this postscript on this bizarre behaviour of hers, along with her two comments at the ‘James Hogan has passed away’ thread that she made the same day – 7/25/2010. I do this out of necessity to preempt the idiots braying (who still may bray anyhow) ‘but I remember Marian started a thread at Asimov’s on Holocaust Deniers, condemning Holocaust Denial blalba’. She certainly appeared to pull the wool over Asimov’s forumites’ eyes (not difficult to do at all), and even her own. And has anybody heard of such a thing??!! Students of psychology and others so interested, please see the forthcoming Postscript Part B for details. I am not focusing on Marian here…
My post (not deleted by the Asimov’s admin) dated 7/25/2010 2:46:34 PM followed. The relevant portion:
David Truesdale and Marian, you are both simply pathetic. Hogan was a Holocaust Revisionist/Denier, I have proven it! So unless Marian and Truesdale, you are going to tell me that you take Weber’s, Butz’s and Irving’s views on the Holocaust remotely seriously….and if you do…well then!!
If you do not, then the fact that HOGAN ENDORSED THE REVISIONIST VIEWS OF HOLOCAUST REVISIONISTS LIKE WEBER AND BUTZ AND IRVING AS HISTORICALLY VALID AND TRUE MAKES HIM A HOLOCAUST REVISIONIST/DENIER HIMSELF!!!!
Anybody out there compos mentis??? Anybody? Hello can a sane human being hear me?
Anybody out there prepared to call out Truesdale and Marian for their incredibly obtuse and even disgusting comments? Is it just me? Any Jews out there who have some backbone and a bit of grey matter? Anybody at all, you don’t actually have to be Jewish, you just need a backbone and a brain and not be a bigot. Is there anybody out there with any sense of decency???? Anybody? I am serious, is there anybody out there at all who is not a zombie or a bigot or apathetic or cowardly or obtuse? ANYBODY?
So Truesdale you are either accusing me of fabricating quotations, in which case come out and say it or else you don’t necessarily see Hogan’s unambiguous endorsement of the Holocaust Revisionist views of Holocaust Revisionists such as Weber, Butz and Irving as being indicative of …Holocaust Revisionism!! Either way you have painted yourself into a corner. Go ahead Truesdale, keep digging your own grave. Go ahead, please, keep digging…
There is a great evil in the air..it’s like 1939 again.
My next post dated 7/25/2010 2:59:23 PM (likewise still viewable on the thread until the Forum shut-down, and this is when I reluctantly acknowledge that I am dealing with more than just obtuseness and thoughtlessness):
Actually no really – Truesdale, do you or do you not take the views on the Holocaust by Mark Weber and/or Arthur Butz and/or David Irving remotely seriously? YES OR NO re any of them or all of them? Please answer this question. It is a legitimate question in light of Truesdale’s responses to me. Once you have answered this question, we can move on, not before then..
And once we have moved on, well however you answer, you are toast (as I explain quite clearly above, to those of you who are compos mentis at least, I’m hoping there are a few please God).
Truesdale then responds all huffy and puffy, predictably it is disgusting:
7/25/2010 3:01:10 PM
Lawrence, I haven’t accused anybody of anything. And I haven’t made any arguments pro or con, much less disgusting ones. Where do you get this stuff? I don’t even know who Butz, Irving, and Weber are, for heaven’s sake. How you can label either Marian or me as bigots because of anything we’ve posted here is beyond me.
Take a pill, please, or a nap, or something, but knock off the slurs and name calling. Jeez.
I then respond with this reply to Truesdale (still viewable at the Asimov’s Forum thread until shut-down) dated 7/25/2010 4:12:17 PM:
Dave trying to worm your way out? How lame! Hoping to side-track me with your lame ‘take a pill and relax’ comment. Won’t work.
You don’t know who David Irving is Dave T? Really? He’s one of the most famous Holocaust Revisionists in the Western world. It’s hard to believe you don’t know who he is…
He denied that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, he said the numbers were greatly exaggerated and in particular the numbers re the gas chambers, where he commented for example, in support of a self-styled execution expert F Leuchter, who claimed there was no evidence for the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz: “The big point [of the Leuchter report]: there is no significant residue of cyanide in the brickwork. That’s what converted me. When I read that in the report in the courtroom in Toronto, I became a hard-core disbeliever”. I take that from the superficial wikipedia, but it can be verified elsewhere. Just the vague and superficial Wikipedia entry on Irving gives more than enough evidence of Irving’s history of fascist political involvements and Holocaust Revisionism and infamous court trials (which can be verified at more credible sources if you prefer) which was all in the news. Don’t you watch the TV news or read the papers at all, Truesdale?
So do you take Irving’s views on the Holocaust remotely seriously Truesdale? Yes or no? Weber and Butz had similar views to Irving. You can look ’em up. I will wait for you to read more on Irving’s writings on the Holocaust (plenty of it is on the web of course), I will give you another 24 hours and then you can get back to us and let us know whether you take the Holocaust views of Irving *remotely* seriously or not. And then when you have answered it honestly, we can move on…and you are still toast however you answer. Note how Truesdale doesn’t actually answer my questions…
Truesdale doesn’t know who David Irving is..would you believe? If Truesdale is telling the truth here, then why did you rush to defend Hogan after I pointed out his endorsement of the Holocaust Revisionist views of Weber, Irving and Butz, if you know nothing of their views? Why did you defend Hogan on this front if you don’t know the first thing about what Weber, Butz and Irving are saying on the Holocaust? Even though I made it clear that they are Holocaust Revisionists and my quotes of Hogan’s make it clear they are Holocaust Revisionists, and you rushed to defend Hogan against my charges AFTER I had mentioned these quotations of Hogan’s and his endorsement of Weber, Butz and Irving. Why then did you not google their names and see what info you got on them before rushing to defend Hogan re Hogan’s endorsement of their Holocaust views, rather than just knee-jerk defend Hogan on this front as you do above, even AFTER I had clearly pointed out (by my Hogan quotations) that those three men were Holocaust Revisionists?
You can try worm your way out Truesdale it won’t work. I know all the tricks, tell me to take a pill, take a hike, relax, get stuffed whatever, change the subject. Won’t work. I am waiting for you to answer the question – do you or do you not take the views of the Holocaust by Butz or Weber or Irving or all three of them remotely seriously? It is a legitimate question for the reasons I have already stated, namely Truesdale’s responses to me after my quoting Hogan re Irving, Butz and Weber. Look up Irving, Weber’s and Butz’s commentary on the Holocaust (instead of commenting here) Truesdale and get back to us on what you think of their views on the Holocaust, or just Irving’s alone even.
I’m patient…but I am waiting for an answer.
One may remark I should not have said “I will give you another 24 hours and then you can come back to us”. It is too pushy and demanding, lacking restraint. Okaaaaaaay, but then I am dealing with somebody who won’t acknowledge that Hogan was a hardcore Holocaust DENIER and my suspicions were beginning to be aroused as to why. Truesdale continued to dig his own grave (anon), so I think my in-your-face response to Truesdale more than warranted. In fact it is more restrained than it could have justifiably been. Only people who don’t see why Holocaust Revisionism is such a big deal – ie Asimov’s forumites especially, well all the worse for them – would consider my response rather than Truesdale’s as the problematic one.
Truesdale then responds, post dated 7/25/2010 4:45:52 PM:
Lawrence, thanks so very much for “giving” me 24 hours to respond or else. I never heard of Irving or Butz or Weber until around last week. I have NOT defended Hogan on anything, so thanks for lying about that.
This subject may be your heartfelt passion right now, and that’s fine. But don’t expect me or anyone else to drop what they’re doing and take it up as their own passion.
I definitely believe the holocaust took place and that millions of Jews were exterminated. I really don’t care who did the deed, Nazis or Russians or whomever. Whoever was involved deserves the same treatment. It was one of the greatest tragedies in human history. If Jim Hogan didn’t believe that then he deserves condemnation for it. We must do everything possible to see that something like it never happens again. Lest we forget.
But frankly I’m not interested in reading all the literature on Irving, Butz, Weber, and whoever else is involved. Much less trying to answer all of your unfounded accusations about me–and on a time table to boot! The holocaust is an important issue of course, but all reasonable people know it took place and how horrible it was. Anyone who disbelieves this is nuts. I don’t know why you’re making this about me. I’m not a holocaust denier nor am I a Jim Hogan apologist on this issue. I think I’ve made myself clear on where I stand as to my own belief, so lay off.
Any further posts by you directed at me will go unanswered, so go ahead and have the last word. Call me names, make up all sorts of stuff about what I didn’t say…whatever. I’ve got plenty of stuff to do this afternoon and time is short.
That would be Truesdale’s last post on that thread, but NOT his last post on the Internet and the Asimov’s Forum itself defending/justifying unambiguously Hogan’s Holocaust DENIAL. This is detailed in part 7 of this exposé. It’s also there in the Postscript Part B.
To be continued in Part 4…