Postscript Part A: The entire unedited ‘James Hogan has passed away’ thread from the Asimov’s Forum. Includes deleted comments

This is the first of a two part postscript to this eleven part series ‘Asimov’s Forum & Der Stürmer – Can You Tell the Difference? On the banality of Holocaust Revisionism’ and introduction here  (so twelve parts really) with links to all the preceding chapters therein.

This series is alternatively titled ‘Alice in Wonderland as interpreted by David Duke and Louis Farrakhan’. When you read it – with the caveat that the reader has a brain and is not a bigot – you will understand why it is so entitled.

This first postscript contains the entire Asimov’s Forum thread ‘James Hogan has passed away’ from July 2010 that served as the basis for this exposé (see parts 1-10 of this series). In light of the Asimov’s Forum shut down in April 2011 (having nothing to do with this blog series), out of necessity I paste it all up here. Thankfully I saved the thread commentary. 

Postscript Part A

The complete unedited ‘James Hogan has passed away’ thread from the old Asimov’s Forum from July 2010.
Original URL now tells you there has been a ‘500 Internal Server Error’                            http://www.asimovs.com/aspnet_forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=3852

The reader is not to be confused by the inclusion of the bylines/epigrams/quotations that the posters often use at the end of their posts. I haven’t edited them all out. I have interspersed my own observations under my blog name – ‘red wolf’ – between some of the posted commentary, all within square brackets and red text so as to avoid any confusion with the actual thread commentary, including my own under the name ‘Lawrence A’. I also do not post up these threads in the original formatting, but in the ‘aesthetic’ wordpress style, so to speak. The ONLY thing that differs from the thread below and its original at the Asimov’s Discussion Forum is the formatting (and my interspersed ‘red wolf’ commentary). 

‘James Hogan has passed away’ thread from the now defunct Asimov’s Forum 

7/25/2010 5:10:11 AMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 250  He has departed the mortal coil, I don’t want to say RIP because frankly I couldn’t say that about a Holocaust Revisionist. Nevertheless he did write some good science fiction, although I don’t think I could read him now. He was always knee-jerk against the status quo for better or worse, often enough let’s face it, for the worse.

I could call him the David Irving of science fiction, well he was just that (I don’t care for anybody telling me I shouldn’t insult the dead, screw that kind of nonsense. with Holocaust Revisionists like Hogan all bets are off and I don’t care for sentimental crap like ‘respecting the dead’ anyway) but I am sure he had his you know better attributes, and he seems to have lived an interesting life. He was in his 69th year.

7/25/2010 5:28:20 AMpermalink
Thomas R
Posts 3922 I was aware of this days ago, but felt like saying anything would probably be a bad idea so demurred.  —

Parting is all we know of heaven, and all we need of hell.
Emily Dickinson

7/25/2010 6:15:27 AMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 250  yes Thomas I checked and see he died on the 12th of this month, almost two weeks ago! I didn’t realise that, I only found out today.

7/25/2010 9:00:32 AMpermalink
T Radigan
Posts 1080 How much do you hear about Ezra Pound these days?

[Now to those of you compos mentis, steel yourselves because it all goes into Alice in Wonderland written by David Duke and Louis Farrakhan territory from hereon in – red wolf]

7/25/2010 10:07:51 AMpermalink
Dave_Truesdale
Posts 703 A week ago today I remembered I had interviewed Hogan back in May of 1993 at a convention. So I transcribed it from its only print appearance and posted it here:

http://www.tangentonline.com/interviews-columnsmenu-166/1380-classic-james-p-hogan-interview

Aside from the fact that I’d heard he was more a libertarian than anything else, I knew nothing of his politics. I’d read maybe a handful of his novels and that was it. It wasn’t the longest interview I’d ever done but it was a solid interview. He talked about his first book editor, Judy-Lynn del Rey, a number of his books, and politics. A fair amount of politics. He had a nearly full fifth of Bushmills Black Bush Irish Whiskey and offered to share it during the interview. We nearly finished it.

As to his being a holocaust denier? Well, after I did the interview some 17 years ago I didn’t follow his career much because I was involved in reading and reviewing short fiction from then until now, so didn’t keep up with hardly anyone’s novel careers, so Jim was no different. To tell you the honest truth, I had no idea whatsoever about the controversy over his holocaust beliefs until he died on the 12th of July and I started reading about it here and there on the web. I was shocked. I couldn’t believe it. Jim Hogan DENIED the holocaust took place???

So I scratched around a little bit and found what seemed to be solid evidence that he did indeed say such things. And I also found solid evidence that he did not believe the holocaust never took place, but that he believed that some of the way the history was written about the holocaust was wrong. It was this he “denied.” He denied the public histories as they were written. A crucial difference.

For instance: after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989 a lot of classified Russian documents came to light. Apparently they showed that camps of Jews didn’t die from the Nazis, but died from neglect and starvation after the war on the part of the Russians, who were in charge of those camps. This side of the story was never told, and Hogan therefore denied that the holocaust happened the way it was being reported to the public. So you leave out a word or two, or reword a sentence or two, and it looks like Hogan was a straight up holocaust denier.

I don’t want to get into a political discussion about this, especially not here. I only mention the above as a cautionary exercise, one which is intended to make clear that you can’t always take for literal truth everything you read, or hear second hand. Keep an open mind.

If Jim Hogan was indeed one who believed the holocaust never happened, then he was plainly nuts. If, on the other hand, he was merely pointing up his strong skepticism about the way the histories were being written in the light of new evidence most everyone wanted to keep hidden, then that’s another matter entirely. And like I said, there would seem to be solid evidence on both sides of the question. So I really don’t know, and am certainly not about to label Jim Hogan a holocaust denier until I do.

But anyway, the interview is there if anyone wants to read it. He was a neat guy as far as I could tell from that one and only meeting, and I’m not about to knee-jerk trash him upon his death because of a highly sensitive issue where both sides seem to present compelling evidence. Sometimes issues aren’t as clear cut as they’re made out to be. I’m just sayin’.
edited by Dave_Truesdale on 7/25/2010


“When any category of science fiction has become dull and repetitive, there is always a brilliant story waiting to be written by giving up the assumptions that made the story easy to write.” — Damon Knight

[Now this post of mine below in response to Dave Truesdale’s ‘what the fuck’ comment above, where he basically outed himself, would be deleted by Asimov’s Admin later. That’s how bad all this is, how sinister it all is. Thing is both Truesdale and Marian read this post, since it was up for quite awhile before it was deleted, so their responses are even more odious than it would later appear, that is after this post of mine below was deleted – red wolf]

7/25/2010 12:32:31 PMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 144 Truesdale, you want to get your facts straight before you make a complete ass of yourself.

I actually wrote Holocaust Revisionist, not Denier, clearly. Hogan was a Holocaust Revisionist. Actually the terms Revisionist and Denier in this context are actually interchangeable but I will explain why that is further down. What are you blabbering on about with your straw man crap about the Russians??

On this very forum about two weeks before Hogan kicked the bucket, like a month ago, I wrote about Hogan’s Holocaust Revisionism on the thread entitled ‘graphic novels and comic books’.

Here is what I wrote, for your convenience, upon Thomas R’s remarks that Hogan had taken down the post at his website from years ago where he came out in support of DAVID IRVING’S VIEWS ON THE HOLOCAUST, NOT merely Irving’s free speech (I support Irving’s free speech rights – that was not the issue), but Irving’s Revisionist views on the Holocaust as historically accurate. This was some years ago during a kerfluffle relating to David Irving, the most notorious English language Holocaust Revisionist “historian” in the world.

here is the thread from which the quotes of mine below are taken, dated 27/6/2010
http://www.asimovs.com/aspnet_forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=3703&Page=1

                           ——————————-

Actually I did make sure to save Hogan’s original comments that he made on his website on the whole David Irving affair at the time, so deleting all that didn’t help you much Hoggie.
So here I paste up part of Hogan’s original comments from his website on the Irving affair, since Hoggie has deleted it now.

James Hogan wrote:

“This week sees the disgraceful sentencing in Austria of the British Historian David Irving for disagreeing with what those in authority require that we believe”

James Hogan again wrote:

“The ritualized arrogance of the parrots that I read in the mainstream media makes me doubt if they have tried to learn anything about the subject before playing back their culturally indoctrinated opinions. Have any of them actually read any of the Revisionists’ works, studied their sources, or compared objectively and critically the Revisionists’ arguments with the officially dispensed story they’ve been told? If not, how do they presume to form any judgment that can be called informed before lecturing the world at large?

“I have. In fact it was Arthur Butz’s book (see Home Page from the link above) that first aroused my interest in the subject many years ago now. I got to know Mark Weber quite well during the time that I lived in California, as a result of my following up various further researches. And I find their case more scholarly, scientific, and convincing than what the history written by the victors says. So I suppose that expressing such skepticism makes me a guilty party too.”

There you have it! In Hogan’s own words, all accurate quotations.

                     ———————————

So unless Truesdale is going to call me a liar fabricating quotations – what is it about Hogan unambiguously endorsing the Holocaust Revisionism of among the most notorious well-known Holocaust Revisionists in the English language world, David Irving and Arthur Butz, as historically accurate and truthful, that is so difficult to understand Truesdale? Do your bloody homework before you trip over your own feet Truesdale. Truesdale – in the libel court case in the UK between Irving and Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin books, do you think Irving in the right and Lipstadt in the wrong? If not, then what are you blabbering on about Truesdale, since Hogan unambiguously endorses Irving’s Revisionist views of the Holocaust as historically accurate? Oh wait don’t answer that Dave, you didn’t bother to check up what all this Holocaust Revisionist talk revolving around Hogan was actually all about, that would have been too difficult I guess…

[Actually my off-the-cuff remarks above could have been better expressed. Hogan was a Holocaust Denier, clearly. Irving, Butz, Weber and Zundel are Holocaust Deniers. Also I was mistaken, Hogan never did delete his comments about the Holocaust from his blog, hence Truesdale and Marian’s commentary is even more egregious than it appeared to me at the time, if that’s possible! – red wolf]

[The comment of mine below, which followed was not deleted by admin – red wolf]

7/25/2010 12:41:16 PMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 250 Hogan came onto this asimov’s forum to defend himself re his Holocaust Revisionism, he was unambiguous on this front – I would put up a link to that thread but I don’t think it can be accessed anymore since it was some years ago. Thomas R remembers (he started the thread), as does Tom Kratman. As does Gardner.

Adam-Troy Castro himself remarked over at Harlan Ellison’s art deco pavillion years ago (I don’t think the thread is still accessible) that Hogan had once remarked to him and some others (including a Jewish woman!) at some convention ages ago, some Holocaust Revisionist gibberish on the Nazi concentration camps. A-T Castro couldn’t believe what he was hearing.

Incidentally Holocaust Denial is actually Holocaust Revisionism, the terms are interchangeable *in this context*. Since when one speaks of Holocaust Denial one actually means denying the extent of the Holocaust, ie the numbers of Jews killed specifically and even the brutal manner of their deaths. So if somebody says maybe two million Jews or even three million were killed by the Nazis, not roughly six million, he/she is a Holocaust Denier as well as a Revisionist, since he/she is DENYING significantly the extent of the Holocaust. People DENY the Holocaust to differing degrees, but whatever the differing numbers they put on the Jewish and even non-Jewish dead from the camps, by denying the numbers (ie six million) and the sheer scale and efficiency of the slaughter (ie from the the gas chambers most notably) they are Holocaust Deniers and Holocaust Revisionists. These are not mutually exclusive terms.

Since Hogan explicitly and unambiguously endorsed both Butz and Irving’s (both of them among the most notorious Holocaust Deniers/Revisionists) Big Lies on the Holocaust as truthful and historically valid, Hogan was ipso facto both a Holocaust Revisionist and a Holocaust Denier. Gettit now Truesdale or is it all too difficult for you to understand?

Dave Truesdale blabbers “Sometimes issues aren’t as clear cut as they’re made out to be. I’m just sayin'”

Uh sometimes they are actually.

[This following post of mine would likewise be allowed to stay up by admin, as would Truesdale’s in response! – red wolf]

7/25/2010 12:56:57 PMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 250 And I almost forgot, Hogan (in the quotations above), praised Mark Weber’s Holocaust Revisionism as well, as impressive and scholarly work! The unholy triad of Holocaust Revisionism in the English language and Western world – Irving, Butz and Weber – Hogan loved ’em all!

7/25/2010 1:59:37 PMpermalink
Dave_Truesdale
Posts 703 I realize this is a highly sensitive issue, Lawrence, which is why I said I didn’t want to get into the politics of it (because I knew it might lead to posts like yours, which belong in the basement probably). I never pretended to be an expert on the whole Hogan debate on this subject, for crying out loud. I did say there were compelling arguments on both sides. One on the other side from those who believe Jim was a denier is from a friend of his who’d known Jim for 30 years and said Jim never denied the holocaust. Of course, if one wants to claim everyone is a denier because he may doubt reported aspects of the holocaust, then you’ve closed the debate.

No reason to get all snarky about it, though. As I said, I never knew of any of this until less than two weeks ago. I read a bunch of stuff at wiki and a few other places which shocked me re Jim’s being a holocaust denier, then I went somewhere else and read close friends of Jim’s saying the opposite. I’ll admit some of the evidence seems quite damning, but without doing my own full-scale investigation I’m not going to make my own personal, final judgment. You may be right on all counts, and if so, Jim was terribly wrong. I tried to remain neutral in my initial post because I don’t know all the facts and history behind this particular issue. And then you want to get all in my face about it.

Rather than teach or try to explain, you choose to get rude and insulting. Nice job, LawrenceA. You used my last name quite a bit in your posts. I’d have used yours as well, but since you don’t post it I can only guess what the “A” stands for.

This really should be moved to the basement.


“When any category of science fiction has become dull and repetitive, there is always a brilliant story waiting to be written by giving up the assumptions that made the story easy to write.” — Damon Knight

[Here Marian ie Marian Powell enters the fray – red wolf]   

7/25/2010 2:03:42 PMpermalink
Marian
Posts 3622 Lawrence A, Dave made a thoughtful analysis on the basis of the information he has available. Instead of stating that you have other information and giving it, you basically attacked his character and intelligence and integrity etc. When you do that, you are the one who loses all credibility, not Dave. Now I know this is how its done in the basement where the point of arguments is not to convince anyone of the rightness of your arguments but of your superiority to the incredibly idiotic fools who disagree with you. So my question really is, why did you start this thread? ThomasR refrained from it for two weeks as I did because it was so obvious where it would lead. There is something incredibly sleazy about using someone’s death to attack. So you understand what I’m getting at De mortuis nil ne se bonum. Even more to the point, all you had to do was start a thread titled something like Holocaust Deniers and then bring up Hogan as an example. It’s a very serious topic and deserves very serious attention. Your approach cheapens the topic down to one more basement topic where no one cares about the issues, just about the insults they can throw.

I simply say that this is not the way to combat evil. You support and contribute to evil by your approach.


“Know the truth and the truth shall make you odd.”

7/25/2010 2:26:24 PMpermalink John E. Rogers, Jr.
Posts 2644 Were the guy’s science fiction books any good?

7/25/2010 2:46:34 PMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 250 Marian writes “You support and contribute to evil by your approach.”

Marian that’s what is called projection.

David Truesdale and Marian, you are both simply pathetic. Hogan was a Holocaust Revisionist/Denier, I have proven it! So unless Marian and Truesdale, you are going to tell me that you take Weber’s, Butz’s and Irving’s views on the Holocaust remotely seriously….and if you do…well then!!

If you do not, then the fact that HOGAN ENDORSED THE REVISIONIST VIEWS OF HOLOCAUST REVISIONISTS LIKE WEBER AND BUTZ AND IRVING AS HISTORICALLY VALID AND TRUE MAKES HIM A HOLOCAUST REVISIONIST/DENIER HIMSELF!!!!

Anybody out there compos mentis??? Anybody? Hello can a sane human being hear me?

Anybody out there prepared to call out Truesdale and Marian for their incredibly obtuse and even disgusting comments? Is it just me? Any Jews out there who have some backbone and a bit of grey matter? Anybody at all, you don’t actually have to be Jewish, you just need a backbone and a brain and not be a bigot. Is there anybody out there with any sense of decency???? Anybody? I am serious, is there anybody out there at all who is not a zombie or a bigot or apathetic or cowardly or obtuse? ANYBODY?

So Truesdale you are either accusing me of fabricating quotations, in which case come out and say it or else you don’t necessarily see Hogan’s unambiguous endorsement of the Holocaust Revisionist views of Holocaust Revisionists such as Weber, Butz and Irving as being indicative of …Holocaust Revisionism!! Either way you have painted yourself into a corner. Go ahead Truesdale, keep digging your own grave. Go ahead, please, keep digging…

There is a great evil in the air..it’s like 1939 again.

7/25/2010 2:59:23 PMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 250 Actually no really – Truesdale, do you or do you not take the views on the Holocaust by Mark Weber and/or Arthur Butz and/or David Irving remotely seriously? YES OR NO re any of them or all of them? Please answer this question. It is a legitimate question in light of Truesdale’s responses to me. Once you have answered this question, we can move on, not before then..

And once we have moved on, well however you answer, you are toast (as I explain quite clearly above, to those of you who are compos mentis at least, I’m hoping there are a few please God).

[This post of Truesdale below was likewise not deleted by admin – red wolf]

7/25/2010 3:01:10 PMpermalink  Dave_Truesdale
Posts 703 Lawrence, I haven’t accused anybody of anything. And I haven’t made any arguments pro or con, much less disgusting ones. Where do you get this stuff? I don’t even know who Butz, Irving, and Weber are, for heaven’s sake. How you can label either Marian or me as bigots because of anything we’ve posted here is beyond me.

Take a pill, please, or a nap, or something, but knock off the slurs and name calling. Jeez.


“When any category of science fiction has become dull and repetitive, there is always a brilliant story waiting to be written by giving up the assumptions that made the story easy to write.” — Damon Knight

7/25/2010 3:05:58 PMpermalink
Dave_Truesdale
Posts 703 “Were the guy’s science fiction books any good?”

Definitely Yes, John. I thoroughly enjoyed THE MULTIPLEX MAN, ENDGAME ENIGMA, and INHERIT THE STARS. Jim could tell a whopping good tale within a clear-cut SF framework. He wrote many other well received novels, too. He has many fans.
edited by Dave_Truesdale on 7/25/2010


“When any category of science fiction has become dull and repetitive, there is always a brilliant story waiting to be written by giving up the assumptions that made the story easy to write.” — Damon Knight

7/25/2010 3:16:23 PMpermalink
The Cthulhu Kid 

Anybody out there compos mentis??? Anybody? Hello can a sane human being hear me?

I’m sane or so I’ve been told by countless tentacled entities. I’m also 100% in favor of the plan in action here to sacrifice Marian and Dave. I just haven’t figured out who or what we’re sacrificing to in this particular case. It doesn’t appear to be Cthulhu. Still, there are other lesser causes still worthy. I’m not sure I’m seeing any of them here, either. However, the joy of sacrifice is its own reward, its own reason. I’ll go get the chainsaw and my faux-stone altar (foam is much more portable than real stone) and meet you in the basement.
edited by The Cthulhu Kid on 7/25/2010

7/25/2010 3:42:04 PMpermalink
John E. Rogers, Jr.
Posts 2644 Dave_Truesdale wrote:

“Were the guy’s science fiction books any good?”

Definitely Yes, John. I thoroughly enjoyed THE MULTIPLEX MAN, ENDGAME ENIGMA, and INHERIT THE STARS. Jim could tell a whopping good tale within a clear-cut SF framework. He wrote many other well received novels, too. He has many fans.
edited by Dave_Truesdale on 7/25/2010

Thanks. Maybe I’ll try one. The Multiplex Man sounds like the story of one of those hapless dudes who got lost looking for a men’s room at an AMC 24/IMAX Experience!/3D enabled mega-theater.

Like the ring of Inherit the Stars.

[Notice how Truesdale just outing himself here as a Holocaust Revisionist means nothing much at all to Rogers Jr it would appear. Oblivious, whatever. Don’t get caught in the crossfire.  – red wolf]

7/25/2010 4:00:29 PMpermalink
Dave_Truesdale
Posts 703 “The Multiplex Man sounds like the story of one of those hapless dudes who got lost looking for a men’s room at an AMC 24/IMAX Experience!/3D enabled mega-theater.”

Hah. No doubt.

Actually, it begins with a guy who wakes up and finds himself dead. If that ain’t a great opening hook I don’t know what is.


“When any category of science fiction has become dull and repetitive, there is always a brilliant story waiting to be written by giving up the assumptions that made the story easy to write.” — Damon Knight

[This post of mine below would not be deleted by admin. How considerate! – red wolf]

 7/25/2010 4:12:17 PMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 250
Dave trying to worm your way out? How lame! Hoping to side-track me with your lame ‘take a pill and relax’ comment. Won’t work.

You don’t know who David Irving is Dave T? Really? He’s one of the most famous Holocaust Revisionists in the Western world. It’s hard to believe you don’t know who he is…
He denied that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, he said the numbers were greatly exaggerated and in particular the numbers re the gas chambers, where he commented for example, in support of a self-styled execution expert F Leuchter, who claimed there was no evidence for the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz: “The big point [of the Leuchter report]: there is no significant residue of cyanide in the brickwork. That’s what converted me. When I read that in the report in the courtroom in Toronto, I became a hard-core disbeliever”. I take that from the superficial wikipedia, but it can be verified elsewhere. Just the vague and superficial Wikipedia entry on Irving gives more than enough evidence of Irving’s history of fascist political involvements and Holocaust Revisionism and infamous court trials (which can be verified at more credible sources if you prefer) which was all in the news. Don’t you watch the TV news or read the papers at all, Truesdale?

So do you take Irving’s views on the Holocaust remotely seriously Truesdale? Yes or no? Weber and Butz had similar views to Irving. You can look ’em up. I will wait for you to read more on Irving’s writings on the Holocaust (plenty of it is on the web of course), I will give you another 24 hours and then you can get back to us and let us know whether you take the Holocaust views of Irving *remotely* seriously or not. And then when you have answered it honestly, we can move on…and you are still toast however you answer. Note how Truesdale doesn’t actually answer my questions…

Truesdale doesn’t know who David Irving is..would you believe? If Truesdale is telling the truth here, then why did you rush to defend Hogan after I pointed out his endorsement of the Holocaust Revisionist views of Weber, Irving and Butz, if you know nothing of their views? Why did you defend Hogan on this front if you don’t know the first thing about what Weber, Butz and Irving are saying on the Holocaust? Even though I made it clear that they are Holocaust Revisionists and my quotes of Hogan’s make it clear they are Holocaust Revisionists, and you rushed to defend Hogan against my charges AFTER I had mentioned these quotations of Hogan’s and his endorsement of Weber, Butz and Irving. Why then did you not google their names and see what info you got on them before rushing to defend Hogan re Hogan’s endorsement of their Holocaust views, rather than just knee-jerk defend Hogan on this front as you do above, even AFTER I had clearly pointed out (by my Hogan quotations) that those three men were Holocaust Revisionists?

You can try worm your way out Truesdale it won’t work. I know all the tricks, tell me to take a pill, take a hike, relax, get stuffed whatever, change the subject. Won’t work. I am waiting for you to answer the question – do you or do you not take the views of the Holocaust by Butz or Weber or Irving or all three of them remotely seriously? It is a legitimate question for the reasons I have already stated, namely Truesdale’s responses to me after my quoting Hogan re Irving, Butz and Weber. Look up Irving, Weber’s and Butz’s commentary on the Holocaust (instead of commenting here) Truesdale and get back to us on what you think of their views on the Holocaust, or just Irving’s alone even.

I’m patient…but I am waiting for an answer.

7/25/2010 4:45:52 PMpermalink Dave_Truesdale
Posts 703 Lawrence, thanks so very much for “giving” me 24 hours to respond or else. I never heard of Irving or Butz or Weber until around last week. I have NOT defended Hogan on anything, so thanks for lying about that.

This subject may be your heartfelt passion right now, and that’s fine. But don’t expect me or anyone else to drop what they’re doing and take it up as their own passion.

I definitely believe the holocaust took place and that millions of Jews were exterminated. I really don’t care who did the deed, Nazis or Russians or whomever. Whoever was involved deserves the same treatment. It was one of the greatest tragedies in human history. If Jim Hogan didn’t believe that then he deserves condemnation for it. We must do everything possible to see that something like it never happens again. Lest we forget.

But frankly I’m not interested in reading all the literature on Irving, Butz, Weber, and whoever else is involved. Much less trying to answer all of your unfounded accusations about me–and on a time table to boot! The holocaust is an important issue of course, but all reasonable people know it took place and how horrible it was. Anyone who disbelieves this is nuts. I don’t know why you’re making this about me. I’m not a holocaust denier nor am I a Jim Hogan apologist on this issue. I think I’ve made myself clear on where I stand as to my own belief, so lay off.

Any further posts by you directed at me will go unanswered, so go ahead and have the last word. Call me names, make up all sorts of stuff about what I didn’t say…whatever. I’ve got plenty of stuff to do this afternoon and time is short.


“When any category of science fiction has become dull and repetitive, there is always a brilliant story waiting to be written by giving up the assumptions that made the story easy to write.” — Damon Knight

[For sheer chutzpah, brazen in-your-face contradictions and duplicity, unconscious or not, the above “commentary” by Truesdale takes some beating – red wolf]

7/25/2010 5:22:58 PMpermalink
Marian
Posts 3622 I suggest we close this thread. I’ll start two new ones: one on Hogan the author and one on The Holocaust and its deniers.

Lawrence A, the subject of those who deny or revise the Holocaust is so serious, as I said, that it deserves serious discussion. You have not said one serious word here on this thread. You’re using the topic for your own angry purpose whatever it is. And as a result you are guilty of the very thing you say you’re against, you’re trivializing the Holocaust by making the topic a personal dumping ground.

John, I appreciate greatly your effort to turn the topic back to the subject of the thread but it obviously cannot be turned. Since at best that means two unrelated topics will be going on here, I’m going to form the two topics.


“Know the truth and the truth shall make you odd.”
pages: 1 2 3

[This is the end of page 1 from the pertinent thread. Hope the non-redneck reader has not spilled his coffee all over his monitor and keyboard at this point. It doesn’t get any better from hereon in. Hardly. Like I say one could subtitle this thread ‘Alice in Wonderland as interpreted by David Duke and Louis Farrakhan’ – red wolf]  

7/25/2010 6:27:33 PMpermalink • reply with quote
Thomas R
Posts 3487 Thomas R wrote:

I was aware of this days ago, but felt like saying anything would probably be a bad idea so demurred.

I may have been correct in this post.


“Men fear death as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear in children is increased by tales, so is the other.” Francis Bacon

 

[This post of mine below would *later be deleted by admin*, although it was read by the participants at the time, since it was up for awhile – red wolf]

7/26/2010 2:45:52 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 147 no Thomas, the problem lies with the likes of Marian and David Truesdale, who won’t answer my questions because he can’t, without making an ass of himself. He dug his own grave, not my problem. Don’t shoot the messenger.

You had never heard of Irving David T? This I gotta admit is hard to believe..

You are an apologist for Hogan’s Holocaust Revisionism David T (you too Marian), so I will call you out for that lie of yours. After all, AFTER I mentioned that Hogan took Irving, Butz, Weber’s big lies on the Holocaust seriously (and backed it up with the relevant quotations), you rushed to defend Hogan from the charge of Holocaust Revisionism. You wrote:

“I did say there were compelling arguments on both sides. One on the other side from those who believe Jim was a denier is from a friend of his who’d known Jim for 30 years and said Jim never denied the holocaust. Of course, if one wants to claim everyone is a denier because he may doubt reported aspects of the holocaust, then you’ve closed the debate”

The debate??
You wrote that bit I quote word for word above AFTER I pointed out that Hogan endorsed the views of Holocaust Deniers Irving and Butz and Weber on the Holocaust (so Hogan’s friend who says Hogan never denied the Holocaust is a liar, I proved it), all of whom consider the figure of six million Jews dead a big lie, all of whom are viciously anti-Semitic and have had strong ties to extreme right-wing white supremacist fascist groups, all of whom consider the gas chambers to be an exaggeration at one time or another, and plenty more along these lines. So considering you wrote the above that I quote AFTER I mentioned that Hogan shared and admired their views on the Holocaust, you then defended Hogan on the indefensible, while at the same time telling us later, that you had no ideas what the opinions of Irving, Butz and Weber were on the Holocaust! In which case why defend Hogan on the charges of Holocaust Revisionism, when you claim you had not the vaguest idea of who his sources were and thus what they were saying on the Holocaust – Irving, Butz and Weber – even after I had pointed out that these were his cherished trusted sources?! Irving, Butz and Weber consider the Holocaust of Jewry a great exaggeration, the gas chambers exaggerated and all are notorious Jew-haters (easy to prove) – and yet you Truesdale won’t answer my question on whether you personally take their views on the Holocaust seriously or not (I have saved you the time and told you in brief outline what their views on the Holocaust are, you can check if you doubt me). So you won’t answer these questions, oh of course not. How can you answer them without squirming, without digging your own grave?

[This post of mine below would not be deleted but remained up – red wolf]

7/26/2010 2:54:25 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 147  So yes what I reference above clearly makes you an apologist for Hogan’s Holocaust Revisionism, quite unambiguously (despite your protestation to the contrary), but then again since you write that “if one wants to claim everyone is a denier because he may doubt reported aspects of the holocaust, then you’ve closed the debate”,
your apologetics for Hogan’s Holocaust Revisionism is not surprising.

David T, do you or do you not think that roughly six million Jews died in the Holocaust, do you think the gas chamber figures for Auschwitz are exaggerated? Do you think the numbers for the Treblinka and Majdanek extermination camps are exaggerated or not? Or do you think the Russians ran the extermination camps in German-occupied Poland? Do you think the number of Jewish dead from any European Nazi occupied nation during 1940-45 (from Holland to Germany to France to the Eastern European nations) is exaggerated, and if so from which nation? Oh wait you aren’t gonna answer these simple questions. One has to wonder why not? Come David it won’t take any time at all, just a simple yes or no to the five simple questions I ask. It will take 2 minutes to answer. Oh you are not answering. Gotta wonder why not? I mean imagine if I asked people, do you think slavery in America was wrong? And then they refused to answer the question..or gave me a response like, it could be debated and it’s a sensitive issue, but wouldn’t give me a straight answer. One would draw one’s own conclusions from such a response.

So likewise – what conclusions can I draw from the fact that Truesdale won’t answer the five or six (depending on his answer to question 5) simple questions I ask on what he believes about the Holocaust? He says he won’t answer my questions after all. Or maybe he will change his mind and answer them, let’s hope Truesdale will set the record straight here. Or maybe as I fear and as he has already said, he won’t answer my questions. One has to wonder why once again – why won’t Truesdale answer simple unambiguous questions I ask him on what he believes about the Holocaust of Jewry during WW2?

I suggest contra Marian that this thread stays open, whether Truesdale answers my questions or not. I think Truesdale should be given the opportunity to answer basic questions on what he believes re the Holocaust and Irving, Butz’s and Weber’s views here (which I outline briefly above) or if he doesn’t answer them ever, then this necessitates a further question. Why does Truesdale not answer a couple of very simple questions on what he believes about the Holocaust of Jewry, in light of his defense of Hogan as not necessarily being a Holocaust Denier after I had given all the evidence that he was one?

[This post below by Thomas R would later be deleted, accidentally or not, or perhaps removed by Asimov’s admin. – red wolf]

7/26/2010 3:23:14 AMpermalink • reply with quote
Thomas R
Posts 3487 Lawrence A wrote:

no Thomas, the problem lies with the likes of Marian and David Truesdale, who won’t answer my questions because he can’t, without making an ass of himself. He dug his own grave, not my problem. Don’t shoot the messenger.

Yeah, well I actually was a bit uncomfortable with Truesdale’s initial post. However I still think what I said about “I was aware of this days ago, but felt like saying anything would probably be a bad idea so demurred” is somewhat validated so far. I’m not really blaming you for that, or not blaming you alone, I’m just saying it turning into a fest of people misunderstanding or offending each other seemed inevitable to me and that’s mostly what I think happened. Maybe you didn’t see it as inevitable or maybe you find something constructive in all this. I don’t find it constructive and I doubt it’s going to become constructive.


“Men fear death as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear in children is increased by tales, so is the other.” Francis Bacon

7/26/2010 3:47:52 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 147 Thomas R you make a good point, however it’s not about “constructive” or not constructive. There would be no problem or controversy in this thread whatsoever if not for Truesdale screwing up so massively in the first place – denying that Hogan was a Holocaust Denier/Revisionist – and then when called out on it by me (which I had every right to do), proceeding to bury himself in the mire and blame me for it.

Oh yeah it’s not David ‘the apologist for Hogan the Holocaust Revisionist’ Truesdale, it’s Dave ‘the apologist for Hogan the Holocaust Revisionist’ Truesdale. Sorry about calling you David and not Dave, Truesdale (uh no not really, but just correcting a minor error, should always get people’s names exactly right). Truesdale don’t worry – you don’t have to worry about any Jewish (so-called) SF writers or editors and the like getting upset with you if they ever become cognisant of this thread, for the most part they know to keep their heads down like the good shtetl Jews that they are, they know their place is not to upset the gentiles.

[GO AHEAD let’s see some Jewish genre figures get angry at this exposure of Truesdale’s outing as a Holocaust Revisionist  *PUBLICLY*. Prove me wrong. I dare somebody. Any Jewish genre personality – a writer, editor, agent, publisher, blogger. The undeniable evidence for Truesdale’s Holocaust Revisonism is now back *out there* on the web, thanks to yours truly. You’re welcome. The shutting down of the Asimov’s Forum and the subsequent inaccessibility of the forum threads in April 2011 is thus no excuse. The evidence is right here in this blog series, in this postscript! No I don’t really expect any Jewish SF writer, editor etc to express their gratitude to me for making this effort whatsoever. – red wolf].

[The “James Hogan has passed away” thread commentary continues.. The comment of mine below (and above) would remain up – red wolf]

7/26/2010 7:10:42 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 149 Here are some quotes from the Holocaust Revisionists – Irving, Butz and Weber – whose opinions on the Holocaust Hogan unambiguously endorsed (since Truesdale tells us on page 1 of this thread that he is not interested in what Irving, Butz and Weber had to say, writing: “But frankly I’m not interested in reading all the literature on Irving, Butz, Weber, and whoever else is involved..”, even as Dave T tells us that Hogan was not necessarily a Holocaust Denier for taking seriously their views on the Holocaust!)..

David Irving:
“It [the Holocaust] is something like a religion…. The Intellectual Adventure is that we are reversing this entire trend within the space of one generation — that in a few years time no one will believe this particular legend anymore. They will say, as I do, that atrocities were committed. Yes, hundreds of thousands of people were killed, but there were no factories of death. All that is a blood libel against the German people.”
Speech in Portland, OR. September 18, 1996

Mark Weber:
“Don’t for a minute think that indoctrinating wide-eyed school children with the lies and slanders against Germans, Slavs, Catholics, Christians, Europeans, and whites in general isn’t a primary purpose of the Holocaust-mongers. … The Holocaust is a religion. Its underpinnings in the realm of historical fact are non-existent — no Hitler order, no plan, no budget, no gas chambers, no autopsies of gassed victims, no bones, no ashes, no skulls, no nothing…. Secondly, it’s a religion for losers…. Suffice it to say that the rise of religions such as this generally coincides with the decline and fall of nations which tolerate them.”
IHR Newsletter, May 1989

[This comment of mine below would also remain up – red wolf]

7/26/2010 7:13:14 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 149 The Nizkor Project (a massive online resource combating Holocaust Denial and Revisionism. Nizkor means ‘we will remember’ in Hebrew) has this to say on Arthur Butz author of the 1976 book ‘The Hoax of the Twentieth Century’:
“Describing Jews as among ‘the most powerful groups on earth,’ he argued that they possessed formidable powers to manipulate governments, control war crimes trials, govern the media, and determine other nations’ foreign policy, all in the name of perpetrating the hoax of the twentieth century. According to Butz, Jews invented this hoax in order to further ‘Zionist ends.’Thus one could extrapolate from Butz’s argument that whatever anti-semitism the Nazis displayed was well justified. This demonology, common to virtually every denier, is an affirmation of Nazi ideology. The Nazis depicted Aryans as the ‘master race’ – strong and invincible. Jews, in contrast, were not human. Despite their superiority Aryans were considered highly vulnerable to Jewish conspiracies. The Jews’ ability to create the hoax had proven the Nazi thesis correct: They were a threat to the world.”

There you go Truesdale. AFTER I pointed out that Hogan endorsed the views of these deranged lying fascists on the Holocaust – Irving, Weber and Butz – with the relevant quotations, Truesdale wrote “I did say there were compelling arguments on both sides. One on the other side from those who believe Jim was a denier is from a friend of his who’d known Jim for 30 years and said Jim never denied the holocaust. Of course, if one wants to claim everyone is a denier because he may doubt reported aspects of the holocaust, then you’ve closed the debate..No reason to get all snarky about it, though.”

Truesdale writes all this above after I bring up the fact that Hogan was a fan of among the most notorious Holocaust Revisionists in the English language world (who Truesdale hadn’t heard of apparently and if so didn’t think of looking up what they had to say on the Holocaust AFTER I quote Hogan praising them, before shooting off his load) and he has the kahoonas to tell me “no reason to get all snarky about it”. You have a lot of gall Dave T, a helluva lot.

What a piece of work this Truesdale is. He jumps off the cliff, left his brains on the shore.
Buried. (Marian too)

Pages: 1 2 3

7/26/2010 7:24:04 AMpermalink • reply with quote
T Radigan
Posts 817 Steven Francis Murphy syndrome, anyone?

[This first post of Sam Hidaka’s following was never deleted but remained up – red wolf]

7/26/2010 3:06:03 PMpermalink • reply with quote
Sam_Hidaka
Posts 288 T Radigan wrote:

Steven Francis Murphy syndrome, anyone?

Murphy often had valid points of contention. But his presentation became so over-the-top offensive that any of the valid points he had were lost in his flood of vituperation.

Is this similar?

Well . . . I’ve stopped reading any posts by Lawrence A. He might have some valid points. But I won’t ever know because I don’t care to wade through his vitriol in search of his points.

Sam

7/26/2010 3:09:41 PMpermalink • reply with quote
T Radigan
Posts 817 Sam_Hidaka wrote:

T Radigan wrote:

Steven Francis Murphy syndrome, anyone?

Murphy often had valid points of contention. But his presentation became so over-the-top offensive that any of the valid points he had were lost in his flood of vituperation.

Is this similar?

Well . . . I’ve stopped reading any posts by Lawrence A. He might have some valid points. But I won’t ever know because I don’t care to wade through his vitriol in search of his points.

Sam

You seem to have answered your own question.

7/27/2010 1:59:56 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 157 It’s very simple – Dave Truesdale and Marian, if not Holocaut Revisionists themselves, note David Truesdale’s red flag comment “Of course, if one wants to claim everyone is a denier because he may doubt reported aspects of the holocaust, then you’ve closed the debate” !! quibbled with and disputed the fact that James Hogan was definitely a Holocaust Denier AFTER I presented all the evidence that he was one – his appreciation and endorsement of Jew-hating fascist Holocaust deniers’ opinions on the Holocaust – Irving, Butz and Weber. So what does that tell us about Dave T and Marian? It all comes down to that.

The fact that Sam accuses me of “vitriol” here, talk about shooting the messenger, doesn’t say much for him, and Radigan’s comments are asinine likewise. I realise Sam and Thomas Radigan, that you don’t care for any Jew getting uppity about calling out the likes of Marian and Dave T for disputing that Hogan was a Holocaust Denier, after I gave all the evidence that Hogan endorsed the views of out and out Nazis on the topic of the Holocaust, but really that’s not my problem.

7/27/2010 2:53:24 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 157 The points I am making Sam? The point is that Marian and David T disputed the fact that Hogan was a Holocaust Revisionist after I gave the unambiguous evidence that he was one and shared and endorsed the opinions of notorious nazis like Irving, Butz and Weber on the subject. Very very very simple to understand. I realise that you don’t see that as a big deal, and can’t figure out why anybody would get all uppity over that – well you wouldn’t. Not my problem like I say.

Although I admit some of my posts appear disjointed, this is because one of them has been removed and one of Thomas R’s as well, I don’t know why, but it appears to be the case – in fact is the case. My post dated 7/26/2010 2:45:52 was removed and one of Thomas R’s after that (so my reply to him makes no sense “Thomas R you make a good point, however it’s not about “constructive” or not constructive…” because his thoughtful response to me was removed), even though in tone and content the post of mine that was removed was no different to anything else I have written here. I have no idea why Thomas R’s comment was removed likewise.

7/27/2010 3:27:40 AMpermalink • reply with quote
Thomas R
Posts 3494
Lawrence A wrote:

It’s very simple – Dave Truesdale and Marian, if not Holocaut Revisionists themselves, note David Truesdale’s red flag comment “Of course, if one wants to claim everyone is a denier because he may doubt reported aspects of the holocaust, then you’ve closed the debate” !! quibbled with and disputed the fact that James Hogan was definitely a Holocaust Denier AFTER I presented all the evidence that he was one – his appreciation and endorsement of Jew-hating fascist Holocaust deniers’ opinions on the Holocaust – Irving, Butz and Weber. So what does that tell us about Dave T and Marian? It all comes down to that.

You could give them a bit of time to respond. (Also it looks like I must have deleted one of my posts by accident)

Also I’ve known Marian on this site for like ten years. The “if not Holocaust Revisionists themselves” in referring to her is, maybe accidentally, really insulting. She worked on a kibbutz in Israel and I think is probably more pro-Jewish/Pro-Zionist than I am. (I don’t think of myself as anti-Jewish, but I’m probably no more “Pro-Jewish” than I am “Pro-Gypsy” or “Pro-Sikh” or “Pro-Berber”) She’s just really into decorum and doesn’t like insults to anyone.

I think at times you don’t understand how things work. You can’t viciously insult or badger people and have that not become the issue. This isn’t Night Shade or one of those places that believes etiquette or tact is a sign one is a “phony.” You need to find a way to express your disapproval or criticism without sounding like an obsessive jerk. Because like I said I also had some discomfort with what Truesdale said, but you’re making him look like the victim by badgering him non-stop. At the very least you should take a breath and think about how your method of communicating is not productive. Because so far it’s not and that’s not because we’re all secret Anti-Semites.


“Men fear death as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear in children is increased by tales, so is the other.” Francis Bacon

“Gummy Bears, gummy bears don’t spread darkness and death!… Do they?” Tom Servo MST3K

[Post of mine below remained up – red wolf]

7/27/2010 3:40:36 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 157 Thomas R my post was deleted, I didn’t remove it. Secondly I never said Marian was a Holocaust Revisionist, just that she may or may not be one. She left herself open to ambiguity and equivocation on this front by the very fact that she rushed to defend Hogan on charges of Holocaust Revisionism, after I gave all the evidence that he was one. Somebody who rushes to Hogan’s defense over his take on the Holocaust after I proved that Hogan admired the most notorious Holocaust denying Nazis in the English language world on the subject, as Marian did, can hardly be said to be pro-Jewish. So what if she worked on a kibbutz? Plenty of the most notorious anti-Semites among the radical Left today worked on kibbutzes, so what?

Thomas R spare me your condescension, you really can’t comprehend something very very very very very very very very simple – this is not my problem. Marian like Dave T rushed to defend and equivocate over Hogan Holocaust’s Denial AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER I gave unequivocal evidence that he was a Holocaust Denier – ie He unambiguously endorsed the opinions of Nazis like Irving and Butz and Weber on the Holocaust. So what Marian and Dave T did was both obtuse, thoughtless and sinister. I realise though Thomas R that like plenty of others here this very very very easy to understand fact is over you head. No surprises really.

[Post of mine below remained up – red wolf] 

7/27/2010 3:48:29 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 157 And Thomas R it’s not for somebody like you to decide who is and who isn’t anti-Semitic and what is and what isn’t anti-Semitic, it’s not like you would know, you wouldn’t have a clue.

Actually through Hogan’s wiki page one can access James Hogan’s original commentary via a reference to what he had to say on the Holocaust (from which I quoted in part), so Dave T’s and Marian’s error here is inexcusably egregious. Here is the whole thing from Hogan:

Comment Originally Posted 22 February 2006
Free-speech Hypocrisy

This week sees the disgraceful sentencing in Austria of the British Historian David Irving for disagreeing with what those in authority require that we believe. Others are imprisoned elsewhere in Europe under similar charges, by nations that crow about their upholding of free speech by publishing tasteless and insulting cartoons. Mark Weber, Director of the Institute For Historical Review in California, describes the circumstances and lists some of the victims at http://web.archive.org/web/20060503084516/http://www.rense.com/general69/orvv.htm. What is it, exactly, that the Revisionists are saying and not saying? Professor Arthur Butz of Northwestern University–also currently the subject of considerable controversy and misunderstanding–sums it up cogently on his web site at pubweb.northwestern.edu/~abutz/abhdhr.html.

The ritualized arrogance of the parrots that I read in the mainstream media makes me doubt if they have tried to learn anything about the subject before playing back their culturally indoctrinated opinions. Have any of them actually read any of the Revisionists’ works, studied their sources, or compared objectively and critically the Revisionists’ arguments with the officially dispensed story they’ve been told? If not, how do they presume to form any judgment that can be called informed before lecturing the world at large?

I have. In fact it was Arthur Butz’s book (see Home Page from the link above) that first aroused my interest in the subject many years ago now. I got to know Mark Weber quite well during the time that I lived in California, as a result of my following up various further researches. And I find their case more scholarly, scientific, and convincing than what the history written by the victors says. So I suppose that expressing such skepticism makes me a guilty party too.

In June this year I’m scheduled to visit Germany as the Guest of Honor at a science-fiction convention in Lubeck, and I have no intention of withdrawing on this kind of account. So are S.F. writers now to risk being arrested when they step off a plane, simply for looking at two bodies of evidence and reaching a conclusion other than the one demanded? Well, we’ll see, won’t we?

7/27/2010 4:06:06 AMpermalink • reply with quote
Thomas R
Posts 3494  Lawrence A wrote:

Thomas R spare me your condescension, you really can’t comprehend something very very very very very very very very simple – this is not my problem. Marian like Dave T rushed to defend and equivocate over Hogan Holocaust’s Denial AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER I gave unequivocal evidence that he was a Holocaust Denier – ie He unambiguously endorsed the opinions of Nazis like Irving and Butz and Weber on the Holocaust. So what MariaN and Dave T did was both obtuse, thoughtless and sinister. I realise though Thomas R that like plenty of others here this very very very easy to understand fact is over you head. No surprises really.
And Thomas R it’s not for somebody like you to decide who is and who isn’t anti-Semitic and what is and what isn’t anti-Semitic, it’s not like you would know, you wouldn’t have a clue.

I understand that you have emotional issues here that I don’t. (Although the Nazis presumably would have killed me as “life unworthy of life” it is true they would not have done so to my very “Nordic” ancestors) Still you’re letting those just take over and make you basically a jerk.

I don’t need or desire you using the word “very” at me a million times like I’m an infant. Talk about condescending! Anyway the sad thing is you really have made “you” the issue and you just are so lacking in self-awareness you won’t realize it. The issue now is not Marian or Truesdale. They’re not here and I’m not sure anyone cares about what points you think you are making about them. The issue is you and your behavior because you’ve made it the issue. I do wish that you hadn’t made that the issue, believe me. However the fact that you’re sniping at any criticism makes it inevitable.

It’s unfortunate you did this as it doesn’t seem to be necessary, but fine. As this has essentially become about you were your parents or a family member killed by the Holocaust? What are the emotional issues that make you lash out like this?


“Men fear death as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear in children is increased by tales, so is the other.” Francis Bacon

“Gummy Bears, gummy bears don’t spread darkness and death!… Do they?” Tom Servo MST3K

[Gee Thomas R, naturally you are just way way way way TOO THICK BY FAR to get it. Turn the question around. Why do so many like you get all defensive when I was exposing Holocaust Denial/Revisionism which I would not have needed to do if the Asimov’s Forum didn’t resemble Der Stürmer and/or stormfront or a Muslim extremist webforum in equal measure? What are the “emotional issues” at work? – red wolf]

[This next post *would see me get the BANNING threat from Asimov’s Forum*. This is discussed in detail in Part 5. At the time of writing the comment below, I had not seen Thomas R’s odious and extremely obtuse comment above – red wolf]

7/27/2010 4:13:21 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 156 So therefore given what Hogan writes re his endorsement and praise of Irving, Weber and Butz and the Holocaust, that I quote in entirety above; Hogan was quite simply a fucking Nazi (given the brief facts I even make mention of re Irving, Weber and Butz above). Marian and Dave T disputed this (Hogan’s Holocaust Revisionism that is), and this after I came up with the indisputable evidence that Hogan was a Holocaust Denier, evidence they simply didn’t care to bother noticing. This does not say much for Marian and Dave T. I realise this is very very very difficult for many people here to understand (including Thomas R), or so it would seem.

I couldn’t have gotten more obtuse responses to the points I made if I had posted all this up on an internet forum in Saudi Arabia or Syria, in fact I probably would have gotten some more intelligent less odious commentary there.

[So that post above would be deleted by admin, and see me get threatened with a banning from admin – red wolf]

7/27/2010 4:17:49 AMpermalink • reply with quote
Thomas R
Posts 3494 This should really be moved to the basement.

Anyway one problem is you just titled this about his death. That’s going to bring out people who’d rather think of him as an author or who are weary of criticizing the dead. You should have made it a discussion on his kooky or racially insensitive/racist ideas. The other problem is your rather abrasive responses makes one want to disagree with you even when you’re right. Going by what I know I’d agree Hogan was, or became, something of a crackpot with a variety of hurtful and dangerous notions. (Some of his notions on AIDS being potentially dangerous, as I understand it, and if anyone had taken him serious) However I imagine he had other qualities too and you see recognizing that as so offensive you are being a jerk on the matter.

Anyway I had something terser, but decided it was too terse. Again, move this to the basement admin.
edited by Thomas R on 7/27/2010


“Men fear death as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear in children is increased by tales, so is the other.” Francis Bacon

“Gummy Bears, gummy bears don’t spread darkness and death!… Do they?” Tom Servo MST3K

7/27/2010 4:47:19 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 157 Thomas R *sigh*. If I didn’t know you better after all these years… Always knocking one’s head against a brick wall.

Dave T and Marian disputed THE FACT THAT HOGAN WAS A HOLOCAUST DENIER AFTER I GAVE THE UNEQUIVOCAL EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS ONE. Dave T and Marian also cleary imply by disputing what I mentioned, that the writer Adam-Troy Castro is a liar on this front since he is also on record as calling Hogan a Holocaust Denier based on a face to face meeting with him at a con years ago. I mentioned all this and AFTER I mention all this Marian and Dave T begged to differ. I do realise that you Thomas R (like others here) don’t get why any Jew would get uppity about that – what after all is the big deal about people denying that a Holocaust Denier was a Holocaust Denier given all the evidence that he was one? Okaaaaaaaaay Thomas R…

I don’t think this should be moved to the basement necessarily, I for one am tired of this thread anyway (and I can’t trust Asimov’s on not deleting my posts). This thread does stand as a testimony to the fact that Asimov’s forumites are fairly representative of the general population as a whole, as far as their overall mentality and mindset is concerned. No this does not say much for Asimov’s forumites.

[Actually my patience with these cretins is simply remarkable. The Asimov’s forumites would drive the Dalai Lama to drink – red wolf]

[Now next comes the comment from former Jim Baen Universe assistant editor Sam Hidaka that would shortly after be deleted. Discussed in detail in part 6 of this blog series – red wolf]

7/27/2010 5:50:07 AMpermalink • reply with quote
Sam_Hidaka
Posts 289 Lawrence A wrote:

… I realise Sam and Thomas Radigan, that you don’t care for any Jew getting uppity …

Lawrence,

I will comment on this point, because you address me directly.

I did not read through your posts subsequent to the one I quote from, because you seem to be repeating what I didn’t find interesting enough to read the first time.

Over the past 4 1/2 years, I’ve worked with many hundreds of aspiring and neo-pro writers. And what I’ve noticed with a small number of the very novice writers is that they don’t seem to understand the words they string together impact the reader in a way altogether at odds with what they think they are expressing.

So I gave you the benefit of the doubt and took it as a given that you, likewise, were unaware of how your words are being taken. And thus, I tried to clue you in to the fact that your points were being lost because of the way you present them.

In the above quoted line, I have no idea what you were trying to express. But what you did express is that you are calling me an anti-Semite.

My emotional response to such an insult: “You’ve obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a shit what you think.”

But others may read your unfounded accusations, and your credibility — already at or near zero because of your earlier insults — has gone below zero.

In fact, the way you present yourself in this thread is not too far different from the schizophrenic homeless guy who gets in your face and screams that the world is ending — and then gets even more upset when you refuse to take him seriously.

If you are satisfied with being ignored as someone not worth paying attention to, then continuing the behavior patterns you display in this thread is fine.

But if you prefer to be taken seriously, you need to learn some communication skills.

First lesson you need to learn: You might convince someone who disagrees with you, if you present a compelling argument. But you’ll never convince someone, if you start and end your arguments with insults.

Second lesson: When you attack people’s character just because they disagrees with you, you’ve lost the argument. You also lose credibility, and whatever merits your argument may have become irrelevant.

Third lesson: When you insult bystanders who have not expressed an opinion on whatever you are arguing about, your credibility drops below zero, and you become the villain in the argument. At this point, your arguments — even if they have merit — are presumed to be wrong.

It’s entirely up to you whether you want to be taken seriously or not.

Sam

[See my far far more appropriate belated response – there is also the one I gave below during the flame-war – to this odious, fatuous, alarm bell ringing offal of Hidaka’s quoted above, in part 6 of this series. Remember what I wrote below was simply off-the-cuff, and at this point I simply could no longer be bothered too much with these stor.. uh Asimov’s forumites – red wolf]

7/27/2010 6:02:01 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 157 Sam your condescension would grate, if I actually cared what somebody who can’t follow some very very very very very basic points I make says.

You are not necessarily anti-Semitic (how would I know?), but you are incapable of understanding some things that are actually very very very very very basic.

Dave T and Marian ran to the defence of James Hogan, a Holocaust Revisionist as not necessarily being a Revisionist AFTER I GAVE ALL THE EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS ONE. I then called them out on it BY REITERATING THE EVIDENCE. It really is that simple. This seems way too difficult for the likes of you and Thomas R and Radigan to understand. Now why is that?

[My comment above, as I detail in part 6 is excessively restrained, all things considered. I let Hidaka off the hook entirely, giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he just can’t follow a coherent, simple and logical argument – red wolf]

7/27/2010 6:11:44 AMpermalink • reply with quote
Thomas R
Posts 3494 Lawrence A wrote:

Thomas R *sigh*. If I didn’t know you better after all these years… Always knocking one’s head against a brick wall.

Dave T and Marian disputed THE FACT THAT HOGAN WAS A HOLOCAUST DENIER AFTER I GAVE THE UNEQUIVOCAL EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS ONE. Dave T and Marian also cleary imply by disputing what I mentioned that the writer Adam-Troy Castro is a liar on this front since he is also on record as calling Hogan a Holocaust Denier based on a face to face meeting with him at a con years ago. I mentioned all this and AFTER I mention all this Marian and Dave T begged to differ. I do realise that you Thomas R (like others here) don’t get why any Jew would get uppity about that – what after all is the big deal about people denying that a Holocaust Denier was a Holocaust Denier given all the evidence that he was one? Okaaaaaaaaay Thomas R….

If you want to pretend you’re the victim of some Anti-Jewish cabal I can’t stop you. However I can tell you that I believe it’s all in your mind. I know Marian way longer than I have known you and I know her to be a more decent person than I usually find you to be. Maybe some people just want to believe the good in others even when that’s not a wise idea. I don’t know and you don’t really know either.

I go to Adam Troy-Castro’s newsgroup on SFF.Net and I see him a fair amount at Sanders. I wasn’t at the places he’s at so I can’t confirm what he says and that might be all some mean. I lean toward believing him because I think he’s a fairly neat guy, but I can understand not believing the testimony of every writer out there particularly as he admits some of these incidences did not have a large audience. (In one he was somewhat loud, but there was like Japanese music or something partly drowning him out. In another it was a small gathering) I know enough to know I would never buy anything Hogan wrote, maybe not even now that he’s dead and won’t profit by it.

You screwed up on this thread, which is unfortunate because in many ways I think you did have the moral high-ground. You blew it though and now you’re just raving like an idiot.

Hopefully I can stick to my guns and make this so long.
edited by Thomas R on 7/27/2010


“Men fear death as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear in children is increased by tales, so is the other.” Francis Bacon

“Gummy Bears, gummy bears don’t spread darkness and death!… Do they?” Tom Servo MST3K

[The deep deep unsurpassable stupidity and offensiveness in equal measure demonstrated by ‘Thomas R’ here is actually  hardly atypical in our society. It is not that unusual or hard to come by. Chilling, but why should anything ever change? Thomas R what about the quotes I paste up of Hogan praising the Holocaust Denialist views of Irving, Butz, Weber from Hogan’s own blog? You have done a u-turn on this thread Thomas R and you don’t even remotely realise that you have done so. Cuckoo. It’s as if I am to blame for the fact that the Asimov’s Forum is indistinguishable from a KKK type forum. Yes Thomas R blame the Jew for all the unrelenting anti-Semitism and idiocy on display in equal measure. Projection Thomas R you bloody moron – red wolf]

[I then post up the comment below, simply ignoring the cretin supreme Thomas R – red wolf]

7/27/2010 6:11:59 AMpermalink • reply with quote • edit • delete
Lawrence A
Posts 157 It’s hard to take you seriously Sam when you seem to entirely fail to understand the following –

MARIAN AND DAVE TRUESDALE RAN TO THE DEFENSE OF HOGAN A HOLOCAUST REVISIONIST DENYING THAT HE WAS A REVISIONIST EVEN AFTER THE EVIDENCE WAS PRESENTED BY ME THAT HOGAN WAS A REVISIONIST. This is the central broohaha here. THIS IS WHERE MY BEEF WITH MARIAN AND TRUESDALE LIES and what I was going on about in my numerous postings. I have made this point again and again and again and NOW AGAIN. But I realise that it is way way way way way way way way over your head, and others.

It’s why I can’t take you seriously.

[Well that is the most polite and charitable take on it. See my pertinent commentary in part 6 of this series – red wolf]

7/27/2010 7:56:45 AMpermalink • reply with quote
Fabrice D.
Posts 907 Where am I? Is this the basement? Who is this LawrenceA? I thought the time of the flamewars and the trolls was over, particularly here, in general discussion.

This topic of this thread is clearly political. (I won’t comment, I don’t know who this James Hogan is, never heard anything about him before today, as far as I can recall).

LawrenceA’s posts seem out of proportion with what Dave wrote, which is basically “I haven’t enough data to have a definitive opinion”, not really offensive, IMO!!!

Worse, lawrenceA’s mind seems to be stuck in a vicious circle, in which he repeats the same things ad nauseam, without “hearing” what others are saying.

Poor forum!

pages: 1 2 3

[Thus ended page 2 of this ugly, obscene Alice in DavidDukeville thread. re Fabrice’s comments, anybody surprised that many of the French had no problem collaborating with the Nazis? – red wolf]

[Then begins the final and third page of this stormfront thread, oh wait no it’s the Asimov’s Forum. They have different URLs see? – red wolf]

7/27/2010 8:03:37 AMpermalink
T Radigan
Posts 854 Since you addressed me directly several times, I will bring up what I said:

“Steven Francis Murphy syndrome, anyone?”

Yes, I’m implying that you’re raving and flying off the handle like he kept doing before he was ultimately banned. Whatever your points, do you deny doing so?

7/27/2010 8:55:56 AMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 158 I keep repeating myself Fabrice because the very easy to understand points I make are over everybody’s heads including yours. And it appears they always will be. If you don’t get how offensive Dave Truesdale’s comments are then all the worse for you. Truesdale had all the evidence he needed for Hogan’s Holocaust Denial, I have pointed that out several times (see the relevant comments by Hogan that I quote above). I do understand that you fail to understand that Fabrice.

Radigan is a run-of-the-mill redneck, so naturally he gets upset at me for calling out Truesdale and Marian for their denial of Hogan’s Holocaust Denial.

A plague of zombies.

7/27/2010 9:02:24 AMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 158 It is very very very simple (maybe that’s what makes it so difficult to understand) – for what appears to be the thousandth time – James Hogan was a Holocaust Revisionist. Marian and Dave Truesdale disputed this even though I gave all the considerable evidence that he was one. I called them out on it, for defending Hogan on what could not be defended, reiterating the point that Hogan was a Holocaust Revisionist. Sam Hidaka and Radigan and then Thomas R and Fabrice appear to have a problem with me for calling out Truesdale and Marian for their defense of the indefensible – disputing Hogan’s Holocaust Revisionism even though it is very very easy to verify. Make of that what you will…

I can’t take seriously anybody like Sam, Fabrice, Radigan and others who appear to be highly offended by my exposing those – Marian and Dave T – who themselves rush to the defense of a Holocaust Denier like Hogan, disputing his easy to verify Holocaust Denial.

If I get a remotely intelligent comment in response I will let you guys know, but I am certainly not counting on it – it’s like a plague of zombies here. It’s not that I have low expectations, I don’t have any expectations whatsoever..

One wonders how low Thomas R can go in sheer incoherence for one. I personally don’t think there are any limits.

7/27/2010 9:17:22 AMpermalink
Fabrice D.
Posts 923 Lawrence A wrote:

I can’t take seriously anybody like Sam, Fabrice, Radigan and others who appear to be highly offended by my exposing those – Marian and Dave T – who themselves rush to the defense of a Holocaust Denier like Hogan, disputing his easy to verify Holocaust Denial.

I can’t find where Dave and Marian “rush to the defense of a Holocaust Denier like Hogan”……

[If you are an *authentic* Jew and suffer from high blood pressure and have managed to get this far, now is the time to take your medication, that is if you haven’t yet had a stroke. These Asimov’s forumites would drive the Buddha to losing it, never mind all the saints sans exception – red wolf]

7/27/2010 9:56:48 AMpermalink
Lawrence A
Posts 158 I notice a post of mine from page 1 in response to Truesdale was also removed dated 7/25/2010 12:32:31. This is the post giving definitive evidence of Hogan’s Holocaust Denial – I quoted Hogan on Irving and Butz (I have saved all my posts). Admin are very upset with me calling Truesdale out on his equivocation over Hogan’s easy to verify Holocaust Denial, more so than Truesdale’s equivocation and disputing Hogan’s Holocaust Denial itself.

7/27/2010 10:34:54 AMpermalink
Lawrence A Posts 158
A post of mine from 7/27/2010 4:13:21 AM was also deleted. So it is impossible for anybody to follow this thread coherently, esp in light of the first post of mine that was removed (from page 1 in response to Truesdale dated 7/25/2010 12:32:31.) without which my subsequent posts in response to Truesdale and Marian cannot be properly appreciated. I think this may be causing some confusion…

As a result of which I say adios to this thread, since it is ridiculous to argue when your posts are being removed and I am neglecting so much work, I gotta get back to the real world.

[That was my last post, incredibly restrained all things considered, and no there is no excuse for any “confusion” – red wolf]

[The only sane poster on this entire thread, other than the Cthulhu Kid that is, then made his appearance. However because the poster below later left the Asimov’s Forum and did not want his name associated with the forum – who can blame him? – I have out of consideration removed it and the link to his blog. His comment is appreciated though. Thank you – red wolf]

7/28/2010 3:28:17 PMpermalink
Guest
Posts 1132 Eyewitness report that Hogan thought the Holocaust was nonsense:

http://www.apexbookcompany.com/blog/2010/07/reading-writers-you-hate/#more-4812

                                           —

7/28/2010 3:41:18 PMpermalink
Clint Harris
Posts 762 Guest wrote:

Eyewitness report that Hogan thought the Holocaust was nonsense:

http://www.apexbookcompany.com/blog/2010/07/reading-writers-you-hate/#more-4812

Dude, it’s all fake anyway! Jim McMahon puts these guys up to this. It’s all scripted. First Hogan was a good guy. He carried the heavyweight champion belt through most of the 80’s, then something happened and he became a bad guy. It broke many a budding Hulkamaniac’s little heart to see him don that black do-rag. Then he was a good guy again. Now that he’s dead, McMahon still runs the show! But to say the Hulk is a Holocaust revisionist is just beyond the Pale.

UPDATE!!

Sorry, I meant Vince McMahon. Jim McMahon was on the Bear’s Shuffling Crew. Superbowl XX. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJNC3dgreaU
edited by Clint Harris on 7/28/2010


Is that you John Wayne? Is this me?

pages: 1 2 3

[And that was the end of it!! Harris’s bizarro post – I don’t have a problem with it, it’s just strange – which I guess was appropriate! ended that whole obsence it-has-to-be-read-to-be-believed thread!

As far as I know I was the only threatened with a BANNING during that flame-war!

IF you are Jewish (and I don’t mean a Jew In Name Only) or IF you have any sense of moral decency whatsoever, after reading the above, you should no longer be under any illusions that base, extreme, hardcore anti-Semitism and associated mind-numbing stupidity/cretinism – that runs so deep its victims are oblivious to it – is as pervasive and as unnerving as it has ever been. And no I don’t think it just applies to the old Asimov’s forumites (not all of them obviously, many of them are decent folk) or the genre community itself. The above surreal thread is so sinister, so disturbing, yet I think it touches on the pulse, the zeitgeist in our wider society. If you are authentically Jewish, be afraid, be very afraid. Or better yet, have courage. – red wolf]

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